[ > gives long winded explanation of his choices and reasoning behind a concept > "but it's whatever"
anyway, the more pressing information noa must give that will hit kaiser like a nail hammered into the wall-- ]
The part you won't like is this -- 10 was my number when I played in the U20 category. I only changed it to 9 after signing my first professional contract. This didn't influence my decision to assign it to you, however you did ask for an explanation that left nothing unanswered.
[ and without missing a beat: ] Yeah, that's gross. Because if it didn't influence your decision, then you didn't have to say it. The fact that you did implies that subconsciously, it did matter to you... wouldn't you say?
[ kaiser would like to call HR and report a case of harassment (he got an answer to the question he asked). since this metaphorical HR department doesn't exist, he'll content himself by instead taking a drink of wine and sighing over it. ]
I wouldn't know. Subconscious influences aren't controllable. Maybe I saw myself in you? Something feral and undisciplined, but full of potential?
[ of course that would only apply if he consciously made the choice to give kaiser the number 10 based off that. he didn't, so it doesn't matter. so why bring it up? well -- just for a little amusement in watching kaiser cringe.
but with great mercy from above, the waiter strides toward their table with two platters in either hand. the presentation is simple but effective. the cut of sea bass is presented on a large tear-drop shaped plate, dark blues fading into the center white where the meal awaits. noa's fried veal brain is even simpler, on a small white plate with a floral decoration at the top and a prawn curled against the cut of meat. the meat is dark enough to be mistaken for a typical cut of beef, such that no one could guess what it was unless they knew. only on closer observation could the lines be perceived.
the waiter wishes them a good meal and departs, noa's attention now squarely on his food. the tiny pink petal on top is delicately removed and set on the edge of the plate. ]
Would you like me to elaborate any further, or have I answered the question to your liking?
[ well, noa will get the cringe he wanted, along with kaiser wrinkling his nose as if he just bit into something extremely acrid. before he can start pretending like he's retching and gagging, though, he's successfully distracted by the display of food that shows up, leaning in slightly to stare in particular at noa's meal — he isn't any more interested in eating brains than before, but his creature instincts seem to have activated, stimulated by a new experience. ]
No, that'll do. [ he even sounds distracted, ready to move onto the next topic already, apparently. ] If I want to ask more, then we can bet on it again. It smells fairly different from a beef steak, doesn't it?
[ which he supposes makes sense, after he blurts that out. would brains even count as meat, kaiser briefly wonders, before settling that question aside. he's eyeing noa's food like a man in the early 2000s at hooter's, because kaiser wants to see noa cut into those brains for totally normal, understandable reasons. ]
... Well? Go ahead. If it's your treat, then you should have the first bite. [ never mind that they already had an appetizer. ]
It isn't as thick. The size of the cut, that it's fried - there's a hint of iron to it.
[ he is very aware kaiser is watching him and would be even if his favorite german wasn't making it extremely obvious. noa won't bother trying to discern the interest behind those blue eyes because that reason would only make sense inside kaiser's warped imagination. if he were to ask, and if he were to receive an answer, then he thinks the only response he would have to it were "ah, alright then."
the first slice is purposefully thin, so that he may savor the meal over a longer period. animal brains, or rather the ones permissible by polite society to eat, are small. a calf's brain is about as big as a small cut of raw tuna though not necessarily as thick. a faint steam visibly airs out as he pulls back the knife and skewers the piece onto the fork. with no ceremony or fanfare for the act, he takes his bite and chews thoughtfully to take the taste in full. ]
Hm. It's good. [ a strong snapping crisp on the outer layer, meat with a firm squishy texture within the inner layer. noa sets his utensils to the side and gives the plate a small push forward. ] You can try a piece if you'd like.
[ no challenge or dare in his offering. whether kaiser takes it or leaves it is enough of an insight for noa's curiosity. ]
[ kaiser is vaguely aware that noa probably makes a few judgments in his mind about how people eat — he'd noticed the subtle changes in expression when people start talking before finishing chewing at team dinners in the past. it is, perhaps, behavior that kaiser subconsciously looks for because he's rather sensitive to it himself, always slightly paranoid that people can tell he wasn't raised right (wasn't raised in general) by a lack of refinement in his table manners. on the flipside, this is also why kaiser tends to pay attention to how other people in turn, and he observes quietly as noa cuts through the dish. it's clean and efficient, as kaiser expected.
noa tastes and swallows; kaiser looks back up in sync with the sound of the silverware being placed back down. he has an answer to this already in mind, so the response comes right on the next beat, like a metaphorical one-two drill. ]
I'll pass. Don't you think the soul is most likely to be in the brain?
[ kaiser will eat whatever parts of an animal, if he has to. but for some reason, he is moderately perturbed by the idea that the body might be a bit more than that. ]
Well... if animals have souls, that is. [ kaiser is counting humans in that, although he hasn't exactly made it clear. ]
If it were, it wouldn't matter. The animal is already dead.
[ fortunately for kaiser he doesn't need to clarify, because noa immediately counts 'humans' as part of 'animals'. it's in his profile!
he'll pull the plate back and cut another piece, though this time he'll audibly ruminate on what kaiser just put forward. ]
Does it matter if the soul were real or not? I suppose if you're religious, but I've never been comforted by the possibility of God. [ the new piece is skewered once again and, before chewing, he concludes- ] My mother was a Catholic though. I suppose that's lucky for me, in a way.
[ it can't be for god and devotion, kaiser supposes, if noa says he's never been comforted by the possibility of god. kaiser's never felt that way himself, although that doesn't stop him from believing that god is probably out there, in some twisted way. god is something that kaiser wants to exists, perhaps, so he can spite him.
anyways, kaiser isn't sure whether it's proper or not, but he is in the school of people who cut up his entire plate before eating. he glances down at his dish, dicing up the fish prepared and so elegantly decorated in a methodical and slightly sluggish pace, as if the movements feel uncomfortable to him somehow. he's still looking down at his plate when he continues— ]
As for the matter of souls... no, I guess it doesn't matter. I just prefer to think that it's real.
[ does this make sense? no? well, perhaps that's just par for the course when it comes to kaiser explaining himself. ]
Hm. The majority of people believe in souls. Even those who aren't religious are inclined to believe there is something "more" to us than the biological. Ego, perhaps, could be another word for it.
[ what is the ego if not the dividing line between the base instinct and the inner voice of reason? living in a way that fulfills both is how people fight with their ego, achieve their desires, and carve the path to the life they most want. it isn't illogical at all. noa spares a glance to kaiser cutting his fish into ready made pieces, unsure what to make of it but not thinking it has any deep meaning either, as he chews his small cut of brain. only when his mouth isn't full does he circle back to the earlier question. ]
The religious community was a benefit, a safety net of sort, but not what I meant. It was lucky because she didn't believe in abortion. A person without those religious beliefs might have chosen to terminate the pregnancy given the poverty we lived in.
[ if this were anybody else saying it, kaiser would be doing his best to maintain as neutral an expression as possible, while perhaps making a noise that could vaguely be interpreted as sympathetic to be safe and blandly polite about the observation being made. but because this is noa, and it's understood that the two of them share a certain commonality in background even though kaiser hasn't directly admitted nearly as much, kaiser lets out a mildly amused scoff. he gets it, more or less. ]
A gift from god, huh? [ don't look at him... he's not self-aware. ] Well, that wouldn't be wrong.
[ purely objectively speaking, of course. kaiser finishes up cutting up his food and takes his first bite, chewing slowly before swallowing. he doesn't have a particularly refined palate, and doesn't have a strong interest in eating for enjoying it, but even he can tell that this a cut above his usual meals in terms of quality and depth of flavor, so he'll pause to enjoy it for a moment before continuing. ]
Is that something you've thought about deeply? [ again, not that kaiser should talk, really. it just caught him a little off-guard, so he has to comment. ]
I gave it more thought when I was younger. Nowadays, it's occasional white noise.
[ there's no proof his mother would have chosen a different path if not for her religion, only an awareness that her beliefs played a part in the decision. he isn't going to say that kaiser is both mature enough to hear this and trusted enough to not gab about it. speaking this openly on a topic many would consider taboo should carry that implication alone.
noa makes the last cut into his meal, forking one of two remaining pieces. ]
I don't think a soul is something we are born with. If it exists at all, it's something that forms through the culmination of our experiences. No one chooses to be born, but we can choose how to live the life we're given. That's a great privilege -- one often overlooked.
Well, yes... people who wonder about these things are probably in a position where they'll never actually have an answer to the questions in their mind.
[ children who don't wonder about that can take the fact that they were wanted by their parents as granted, kaiser thinks. he also spent some span of his life wondering about the circumstances of his birth before concluding that there's nothing that he'd get out of pondering it any further. the fact of the matter is that he's alive, whether or not anybody wanted it to happen, and now he has to make that everybody else's problem.
that is to say, kaiser also feels no need to say that he understands to keep all of this in confidence. a german boy in a glass house shouldn't throw the first rock, after all. ] ]
... Then, from your perspective, that calf certainly didn't have a soul. Because it didn't have a single true choice on how to live its life, a soul could never have developed in it.
[ it's almost tempting to empathize with the calf, but kaiser won't. because he does have a choice — there is a certain awareness in the back of his mind that he has enough money, along with looks and fame, that he doesn't have to continue playing football, if he truly didn't want to. therefore, by either of their definitions, kaiser concludes: he has a soul, the calf did not. ]
[ a faint laugh breathes out of his nose as he chews, both because he agrees and because it's funny how true it is. a question argued and debated for hundreds of years with no answer only exists to be discussed, never solved. people can argue for argument's sake and that's fine, but he doesn't think those who don't believe in a soul are any more or less right than those who do believe in it. both sides are smugly attached to their hypothesis, and neither side has evidence to support their claim.
two theories clashing without a shred of proof between them is the equivalent of watching two terrible football teams play against each other. manchester united versus arsenal? they're both simply terrible!
jokes aside, he never had the luxury of worrying about whether he had a soul or not as a child. he was too busy thinking about if he should either save money to buy warm clothes for the winter or if he should replace his worn out sneakers. as an adult, he has to worry about paying his taxes and kicking the ball better than kids half his age because he'll get called washed if he doesn't score at least once a game.
he washes the food down with a sip of wine, considering kaiser's conclusion only for a beat before realizing he has no choice but to agree. ]
That's right. It had a pitiable existence, bred for consumption and sold for parts. Though I'm sure I would be called a bastard by parents who lost their infants to tragic circumstance. [ he shrugs and brings the last piece to his mouth. yet it doesn't go in before he adds- ] There's a great deal of tragedy and suffering in the world. It isn't a contest, but one must have perspective.
[ it is, perhaps, the equivalent of watching man utd vs. the spurs in today's europa league finals. or as it has been called... the "L classico". ]
You get called a bastard by so many, what's a few more?
[ kaiser smiles, twisted and wry, yet also relaxed and genuine — it's not funny, it really isn't. but for some reason, this brief repartee fills him with a kind of malicious amusement.
truth be told, kaiser has never thought of his life as particularly difficult. most things that he's gone through have felt like something that simply had to be endured, from his perspective. to be passive and weak-willed was a survival mechanism; by the definition they've landed on, michael kaiser's soul wasn't actually born until 15 or so, when he realized that he has a choice, he has something he values, and that he might actually be strong. the difference between him and the calf, though, is that kaiser's soul could have been born far earlier or later, if at all — the calf, on the other hand, never had a choice.
kaiser has encountered tragedy, he's encountered suffering — as he knows noel noa has as well. yet the man before him has refused to allow either to define him by the rest of the world, and kaiser is determined to do the same.
he picks up the wine bottle and tops off noa's glass. sit there and drink while i catch up on the pace of the meal! is, perhaps, the message being sent. ]
Alright, so how about this. Where do you think that the soul goes after the body dies?
[ pardon him as he drops some conversational bait to give him a chance to start eating. it's rather conspicuous when he's got most of his entree still on his plate and noa doesn't... ]
[ what's a bit of light rain when it falls over the ocean? noa had countless admirers and in turn countless enemies - those he knows and those who keep their bitterness under lock and key. neither matter very much to him.
he watches kaiser top him off with disinterest and only a touch of annoyance. mainly because he was almost finished with his glass and didn't want a refill. would a protest have stopped his dinner partner? it's about as likely or unlikely as heads or tails. if there's a message sent with it, noa is electing to ignore it by not taking a sip.
(it's in this moment as well that he realizes how little kaiser has eaten. has he really just been watching him eat fried brain while they debate philosophical matters? even after all these years, kaiser's odd whims perplex him.) ]
I don't think it goes anywhere. It doesn't need to -- without a vessel, a soul may as well be air. People concern themselves too much with the notion of afterlife out of ego.
[ he may have been raised catholic but that doesn't mean he's a good god fearing man. ]
[ fulfilling the stomach comes second to fulfilling the mind, always. but while kaiser's default eating pace is rather slow, he is also skilled at very quickly and discreetly eating — and he already did all the work of cutting up his meal into bite-sized pieces, so he manages to put an impressive fraction of fish down in the moments it takes for noa to reply. one might argue he should consider enjoying the flavor more, but kaiser thinks he enjoys it enough without chewing a few times extra. ]
... That's a question people have been debating for centuries, whether the mind and body are separate or one. And if it's one, whether mind precedes body, the other way around, or if there's a completely separate substance that precedes both.
[ he takes a sip of wine. he does not contemplate how he should maybe consider picking up a new hobby, maybe read some fiction for a change. ]
If someone's braindead, then do you think their existence is necessarily gone?
[ it's an unnecessary diagnostic test to assess where he can diagnose noa is on the very important matter of this philosophical debate. unfortunately, he may be betraying his genuine curiosity about noa a little too much tonight. oops! ]
And they've come to no conclusion in those centuries. A question debated on for debate sake isn't worth my time.
[ keyword being 'my' -- people are welcome to waste their precious seconds alive on roundabout debates with no answers. noa will spend his kicking around a ball for self-interest, obscene amounts of money, and trophies to put in his closet. ]
If someone is only kept alive because of machines supporting their body, then that answers the question already. Most of what people attribute to a soul is really in their brain to begin with. [ his eyes wander away from kaiser, quickly chewing up a meal to be savored, to the glass of wine. it really does irritate him more than it should to have it sit nearly full. ] ...You're asking me a lot of questions without giving your own thoughts. Are you trying to figure something out about me?
[ it's the only thing he can reason, because kaiser is so strangely curious about him today. "you miss me after all, don't you?" -- he would say it but he knows kaiser would just scrunch up like he ate rotten fish left out in the sun. ]
Oh my, you can simply ask if you want to know what I think, can't you? Sometimes I even answer. [ sometimes... ] I believe that's how conversation works. You should give it a try too.
[ though kaiser asking more questions than he gives answers is par for the course when it comes from him and not a specific attempt to elude noa in particular — kaiser quickly learned that people tend to enjoy talking about themselves and their own thoughts, which means that he can talk about himself less. the less clarity he offers, the more undefinable he becomes... or something like that. the more immediate point is that at heart, kaiser is a deeply private being. ]
I think that mind-body dualism can't be disproved, and I prefer to believe in it, so I do. Maybe the mind still exists in the braindead body, and we lack the ability to discern it.
[ kaiser then begins to eat again. he knows noa will note that kaiser did not answer the actual question and wants to see if he can force noa's hand at all before circling back around to it. ]
[ he is capable of having normal conversations, thank you, he just chooses not to. instead he has conversations about if babies have souls over fried veal brain. it's preferable to having inane talks with his peers as they try to posture an imaginary superiority over him. the downside is that they both dislike sharing too much of themselves with others, which leads to insane tangents and topics and flipping coins to determine who has to expose their vulnerabilities. ]
Believing in something with no evidence is just blind faith. Are you a spiritual person? Or maybe you just need something to believe in.
[ kaiser genuinely wants to ask what it is to be "spiritual", because he isn't sure whether they have the same connotations in mind, but he figures that isn't what noa is actually asking about. he finishes his bite of fish and will allow them to escape the tangent... this time! ]
It isn't as if I need what I believe to be right, in this case... like I said, I know that none of this can be proven. But I've read about it enough that I know what I'd pick if I had the choice to make one side objectively true.
[ can that even be considered belief? maybe this is what it's like to be a sports team supporter, kaiser thinks. ]
Is it blind faith to prefer fish over red meat? I think both are only preferences. Well... at least, both are preferences to me.
[ he acknowledges that there are people who have much stronger thoughts about it than he does. there's a pause as kaiser stares down at his plate — there's just a bit left. noa may be aware that kaiser's mind, however, has already moved onto whether or not he should ask to see the dessert menu... ]
You shouldn't compare a preference in meat to the existence of a soul.
[ kaiser knows this though, and noa knows it too, so the underlying "we both know that" is in his direct yet soft tone. instead of sighing, he reaches for the glass and takes a measured sip. he is not going to be insane and down this wine like he does his coffee, though he is curbing the urge to just be uncivilized about it. he's had to learn how to act like normal people do and part of that was understanding wine needs to be savored. despite his attempts, he hasn't learned how to do that part very well yet. ]
Interesting - you don't need to be right, but taking a stance is still important. That explains a lot.
[ perhaps because a good waiter has a sixth sense for it, or because they were being watched, it doesn't take long for their server to come by and offer to bring out a dessert menu. noa nods with a 'please' as his plate is lifted. the waiter, then noticing the bit of fish left, politely asks kaiser if he's still eating. ]
What, because people will call me a bastard for it?
[ it is, of course, a rhetorical question — what's a few more grains of sand in a desert? at least they're in each others' company for it.
but the waiter coming over is a convenient interruption. yes, he'll see the menu; no, he'll finish his meal, but thanks — for kaiser's many faults, wasting food and being rude to people just doing their jobs are not among them. he'll finish it up while thinking over the dessert options, washing down the last bite with a sip of wine before leaning in and pressing his napkin to his mouth. ]
... Shall we do one more coin flip before dessert, then? [ continue their totally normal conversation, which they can both do, because they have normal conversational skills? ]
[ noa takes the offered dessert menu out of politeness, not anticipating he'll actually want anything. he's not a fan of sweets and he speculates a lack of snacks during childhood is the culprit. you can't crave the taste of something you have no point of reference for. his real vice is salt -- even after eating an expensive meal, the thought surfaces an image of cup noodles after cooking in boiling water for a few minutes, firm and ready to be slurped up.
kaiser's interjection breaks that dangerous imagery, and for the better. noa gently shuts the menu he barely skimmed and hums quietly. ]
Do you want it to be about a question, or something else? [ because they're so normal and don't need a coin to dictate the flow of conversation, right? (...unless--) ] What are your plans after this?
[ "after this" as if he didn't make up a very spur of the moment dinner date just to see if kaiser would take the bait. ]
[ to that question, kaiser tilts his head up from the dessert menu and gives noa a look that conveys some sort of mix of dismay and the stoicism of a kid being very brave about getting his shots. he thinks noa can guess the answer to that question, actually, and he's feeling a certain way about that! ]
Perhaps read something, perhaps watch something, a shower, and then bed. Unless there's another mysterious event that I was not aware I had scheduled?
[ he's onto you, sir. not that it was being particularly hidden, kaiser is realizing in retrospect. ]
Why? Are you going to offer up a prize that takes up my time?
[ he's not going to keep up the charade anymore, they both know he gaslit gatekept girlboss'd kaiser into having dinner tonight. but also, kaiser had to have realized they didn't make any plans and still chose to take him up on the meal! this says a lot. ]
What sort of prize would you like? You aren't very materialistic. Would you like to monopolize my time then?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
[ > gives long winded explanation of his choices and reasoning behind a concept
> "but it's whatever"
anyway, the more pressing information noa must give that will hit kaiser like a nail hammered into the wall-- ]
The part you won't like is this -- 10 was my number when I played in the U20 category. I only changed it to 9 after signing my first professional contract. This didn't influence my decision to assign it to you, however you did ask for an explanation that left nothing unanswered.
no subject
[ kaiser would like to call HR and report a case of harassment (he got an answer to the question he asked). since this metaphorical HR department doesn't exist, he'll content himself by instead taking a drink of wine and sighing over it. ]
no subject
[ of course that would only apply if he consciously made the choice to give kaiser the number 10 based off that. he didn't, so it doesn't matter. so why bring it up? well -- just for a little amusement in watching kaiser cringe.
but with great mercy from above, the waiter strides toward their table with two platters in either hand. the presentation is simple but effective. the cut of sea bass is presented on a large tear-drop shaped plate, dark blues fading into the center white where the meal awaits. noa's fried veal brain is even simpler, on a small white plate with a floral decoration at the top and a prawn curled against the cut of meat. the meat is dark enough to be mistaken for a typical cut of beef, such that no one could guess what it was unless they knew. only on closer observation could the lines be perceived.
the waiter wishes them a good meal and departs, noa's attention now squarely on his food. the tiny pink petal on top is delicately removed and set on the edge of the plate. ]
Would you like me to elaborate any further, or have I answered the question to your liking?
no subject
No, that'll do. [ he even sounds distracted, ready to move onto the next topic already, apparently. ] If I want to ask more, then we can bet on it again. It smells fairly different from a beef steak, doesn't it?
[ which he supposes makes sense, after he blurts that out. would brains even count as meat, kaiser briefly wonders, before settling that question aside. he's eyeing noa's food like a man in the early 2000s at hooter's, because kaiser wants to see noa cut into those brains for totally normal, understandable reasons. ]
... Well? Go ahead. If it's your treat, then you should have the first bite. [ never mind that they already had an appetizer. ]
no subject
[ he is very aware kaiser is watching him and would be even if his favorite german wasn't making it extremely obvious. noa won't bother trying to discern the interest behind those blue eyes because that reason would only make sense inside kaiser's warped imagination. if he were to ask, and if he were to receive an answer, then he thinks the only response he would have to it were "ah, alright then."
the first slice is purposefully thin, so that he may savor the meal over a longer period. animal brains, or rather the ones permissible by polite society to eat, are small. a calf's brain is about as big as a small cut of raw tuna though not necessarily as thick. a faint steam visibly airs out as he pulls back the knife and skewers the piece onto the fork. with no ceremony or fanfare for the act, he takes his bite and chews thoughtfully to take the taste in full. ]
Hm. It's good. [ a strong snapping crisp on the outer layer, meat with a firm squishy texture within the inner layer. noa sets his utensils to the side and gives the plate a small push forward. ] You can try a piece if you'd like.
[ no challenge or dare in his offering. whether kaiser takes it or leaves it is enough of an insight for noa's curiosity. ]
no subject
noa tastes and swallows; kaiser looks back up in sync with the sound of the silverware being placed back down. he has an answer to this already in mind, so the response comes right on the next beat, like a metaphorical one-two drill. ]
I'll pass. Don't you think the soul is most likely to be in the brain?
[ kaiser will eat whatever parts of an animal, if he has to. but for some reason, he is moderately perturbed by the idea that the body might be a bit more than that. ]
Well... if animals have souls, that is. [ kaiser is counting humans in that, although he hasn't exactly made it clear. ]
no subject
[ fortunately for kaiser he doesn't need to clarify, because noa immediately counts 'humans' as part of 'animals'. it's in his profile!
he'll pull the plate back and cut another piece, though this time he'll audibly ruminate on what kaiser just put forward. ]
Does it matter if the soul were real or not? I suppose if you're religious, but I've never been comforted by the possibility of God. [ the new piece is skewered once again and, before chewing, he concludes- ] My mother was a Catholic though. I suppose that's lucky for me, in a way.
no subject
[ it can't be for god and devotion, kaiser supposes, if noa says he's never been comforted by the possibility of god. kaiser's never felt that way himself, although that doesn't stop him from believing that god is probably out there, in some twisted way. god is something that kaiser wants to exists, perhaps, so he can spite him.
anyways, kaiser isn't sure whether it's proper or not, but he is in the school of people who cut up his entire plate before eating. he glances down at his dish, dicing up the fish prepared and so elegantly decorated in a methodical and slightly sluggish pace, as if the movements feel uncomfortable to him somehow. he's still looking down at his plate when he continues— ]
As for the matter of souls... no, I guess it doesn't matter. I just prefer to think that it's real.
[ does this make sense? no? well, perhaps that's just par for the course when it comes to kaiser explaining himself. ]
no subject
[ what is the ego if not the dividing line between the base instinct and the inner voice of reason? living in a way that fulfills both is how people fight with their ego, achieve their desires, and carve the path to the life they most want. it isn't illogical at all. noa spares a glance to kaiser cutting his fish into ready made pieces, unsure what to make of it but not thinking it has any deep meaning either, as he chews his small cut of brain. only when his mouth isn't full does he circle back to the earlier question. ]
The religious community was a benefit, a safety net of sort, but not what I meant. It was lucky because she didn't believe in abortion. A person without those religious beliefs might have chosen to terminate the pregnancy given the poverty we lived in.
no subject
A gift from god, huh? [ don't look at him... he's not self-aware. ] Well, that wouldn't be wrong.
[ purely objectively speaking, of course. kaiser finishes up cutting up his food and takes his first bite, chewing slowly before swallowing. he doesn't have a particularly refined palate, and doesn't have a strong interest in eating for enjoying it, but even he can tell that this a cut above his usual meals in terms of quality and depth of flavor, so he'll pause to enjoy it for a moment before continuing. ]
Is that something you've thought about deeply? [ again, not that kaiser should talk, really. it just caught him a little off-guard, so he has to comment. ]
no subject
[ there's no proof his mother would have chosen a different path if not for her religion, only an awareness that her beliefs played a part in the decision. he isn't going to say that kaiser is both mature enough to hear this and trusted enough to not gab about it. speaking this openly on a topic many would consider taboo should carry that implication alone.
noa makes the last cut into his meal, forking one of two remaining pieces. ]
I don't think a soul is something we are born with. If it exists at all, it's something that forms through the culmination of our experiences. No one chooses to be born, but we can choose how to live the life we're given. That's a great privilege -- one often overlooked.
no subject
[ children who don't wonder about that can take the fact that they were wanted by their parents as granted, kaiser thinks. he also spent some span of his life wondering about the circumstances of his birth before concluding that there's nothing that he'd get out of pondering it any further. the fact of the matter is that he's alive, whether or not anybody wanted it to happen, and now he has to make that everybody else's problem.
that is to say, kaiser also feels no need to say that he understands to keep all of this in confidence. a german boy in a glass house shouldn't throw the first rock, after all. ] ]
... Then, from your perspective, that calf certainly didn't have a soul. Because it didn't have a single true choice on how to live its life, a soul could never have developed in it.
[ it's almost tempting to empathize with the calf, but kaiser won't. because he does have a choice — there is a certain awareness in the back of his mind that he has enough money, along with looks and fame, that he doesn't have to continue playing football, if he truly didn't want to. therefore, by either of their definitions, kaiser concludes: he has a soul, the calf did not. ]
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two theories clashing without a shred of proof between them is the equivalent of watching two terrible football teams play against each other. manchester united versus arsenal? they're both simply terrible!
jokes aside, he never had the luxury of worrying about whether he had a soul or not as a child. he was too busy thinking about if he should either save money to buy warm clothes for the winter or if he should replace his worn out sneakers. as an adult, he has to worry about paying his taxes and kicking the ball better than kids half his age because he'll get called washed if he doesn't score at least once a game.
he washes the food down with a sip of wine, considering kaiser's conclusion only for a beat before realizing he has no choice but to agree. ]
That's right. It had a pitiable existence, bred for consumption and sold for parts. Though I'm sure I would be called a bastard by parents who lost their infants to tragic circumstance. [ he shrugs and brings the last piece to his mouth. yet it doesn't go in before he adds- ] There's a great deal of tragedy and suffering in the world. It isn't a contest, but one must have perspective.
[ then he eats the final piece of calf brain. ]
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You get called a bastard by so many, what's a few more?
[ kaiser smiles, twisted and wry, yet also relaxed and genuine — it's not funny, it really isn't. but for some reason, this brief repartee fills him with a kind of malicious amusement.
truth be told, kaiser has never thought of his life as particularly difficult. most things that he's gone through have felt like something that simply had to be endured, from his perspective. to be passive and weak-willed was a survival mechanism; by the definition they've landed on, michael kaiser's soul wasn't actually born until 15 or so, when he realized that he has a choice, he has something he values, and that he might actually be strong. the difference between him and the calf, though, is that kaiser's soul could have been born far earlier or later, if at all — the calf, on the other hand, never had a choice.
kaiser has encountered tragedy, he's encountered suffering — as he knows noel noa has as well. yet the man before him has refused to allow either to define him by the rest of the world, and kaiser is determined to do the same.
he picks up the wine bottle and tops off noa's glass. sit there and drink while i catch up on the pace of the meal! is, perhaps, the message being sent. ]
Alright, so how about this. Where do you think that the soul goes after the body dies?
[ pardon him as he drops some conversational bait to give him a chance to start eating. it's rather conspicuous when he's got most of his entree still on his plate and noa doesn't... ]
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he watches kaiser top him off with disinterest and only a touch of annoyance. mainly because he was almost finished with his glass and didn't want a refill. would a protest have stopped his dinner partner? it's about as likely or unlikely as heads or tails. if there's a message sent with it, noa is electing to ignore it by not taking a sip.
(it's in this moment as well that he realizes how little kaiser has eaten. has he really just been watching him eat fried brain while they debate philosophical matters? even after all these years, kaiser's odd whims perplex him.) ]
I don't think it goes anywhere. It doesn't need to -- without a vessel, a soul may as well be air. People concern themselves too much with the notion of afterlife out of ego.
[ he may have been raised catholic but that doesn't mean he's a good god fearing man. ]
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... That's a question people have been debating for centuries, whether the mind and body are separate or one. And if it's one, whether mind precedes body, the other way around, or if there's a completely separate substance that precedes both.
[ he takes a sip of wine. he does not contemplate how he should maybe consider picking up a new hobby, maybe read some fiction for a change. ]
If someone's braindead, then do you think their existence is necessarily gone?
[ it's an unnecessary diagnostic test to assess where he can diagnose noa is on the very important matter of this philosophical debate. unfortunately, he may be betraying his genuine curiosity about noa a little too much tonight. oops! ]
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[ keyword being 'my' -- people are welcome to waste their precious seconds alive on roundabout debates with no answers. noa will spend his kicking around a ball for self-interest, obscene amounts of money, and trophies to put in his closet. ]
If someone is only kept alive because of machines supporting their body, then that answers the question already. Most of what people attribute to a soul is really in their brain to begin with. [ his eyes wander away from kaiser, quickly chewing up a meal to be savored, to the glass of wine. it really does irritate him more than it should to have it sit nearly full. ] ...You're asking me a lot of questions without giving your own thoughts. Are you trying to figure something out about me?
[ it's the only thing he can reason, because kaiser is so strangely curious about him today. "you miss me after all, don't you?" -- he would say it but he knows kaiser would just scrunch up like he ate rotten fish left out in the sun. ]
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[ though kaiser asking more questions than he gives answers is par for the course when it comes from him and not a specific attempt to elude noa in particular — kaiser quickly learned that people tend to enjoy talking about themselves and their own thoughts, which means that he can talk about himself less. the less clarity he offers, the more undefinable he becomes... or something like that. the more immediate point is that at heart, kaiser is a deeply private being. ]
I think that mind-body dualism can't be disproved, and I prefer to believe in it, so I do. Maybe the mind still exists in the braindead body, and we lack the ability to discern it.
[ kaiser then begins to eat again. he knows noa will note that kaiser did not answer the actual question and wants to see if he can force noa's hand at all before circling back around to it. ]
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[ he is capable of having normal conversations, thank you, he just chooses not to. instead he has conversations about if babies have souls over fried veal brain. it's preferable to having inane talks with his peers as they try to posture an imaginary superiority over him. the downside is that they both dislike sharing too much of themselves with others, which leads to insane tangents and topics and flipping coins to determine who has to expose their vulnerabilities. ]
Believing in something with no evidence is just blind faith. Are you a spiritual person? Or maybe you just need something to believe in.
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It isn't as if I need what I believe to be right, in this case... like I said, I know that none of this can be proven. But I've read about it enough that I know what I'd pick if I had the choice to make one side objectively true.
[ can that even be considered belief? maybe this is what it's like to be a sports team supporter, kaiser thinks. ]
Is it blind faith to prefer fish over red meat? I think both are only preferences. Well... at least, both are preferences to me.
[ he acknowledges that there are people who have much stronger thoughts about it than he does. there's a pause as kaiser stares down at his plate — there's just a bit left. noa may be aware that kaiser's mind, however, has already moved onto whether or not he should ask to see the dessert menu... ]
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[ kaiser knows this though, and noa knows it too, so the underlying "we both know that" is in his direct yet soft tone. instead of sighing, he reaches for the glass and takes a measured sip. he is not going to be insane and down this wine like he does his coffee, though he is curbing the urge to just be uncivilized about it. he's had to learn how to act like normal people do and part of that was understanding wine needs to be savored. despite his attempts, he hasn't learned how to do that part very well yet. ]
Interesting - you don't need to be right, but taking a stance is still important. That explains a lot.
[ perhaps because a good waiter has a sixth sense for it, or because they were being watched, it doesn't take long for their server to come by and offer to bring out a dessert menu. noa nods with a 'please' as his plate is lifted. the waiter, then noticing the bit of fish left, politely asks kaiser if he's still eating. ]
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[ it is, of course, a rhetorical question — what's a few more grains of sand in a desert? at least they're in each others' company for it.
but the waiter coming over is a convenient interruption. yes, he'll see the menu; no, he'll finish his meal, but thanks — for kaiser's many faults, wasting food and being rude to people just doing their jobs are not among them. he'll finish it up while thinking over the dessert options, washing down the last bite with a sip of wine before leaning in and pressing his napkin to his mouth. ]
... Shall we do one more coin flip before dessert, then? [ continue their totally normal conversation, which they can both do, because they have normal conversational skills? ]
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[ noa takes the offered dessert menu out of politeness, not anticipating he'll actually want anything. he's not a fan of sweets and he speculates a lack of snacks during childhood is the culprit. you can't crave the taste of something you have no point of reference for. his real vice is salt -- even after eating an expensive meal, the thought surfaces an image of cup noodles after cooking in boiling water for a few minutes, firm and ready to be slurped up.
kaiser's interjection breaks that dangerous imagery, and for the better. noa gently shuts the menu he barely skimmed and hums quietly. ]
Do you want it to be about a question, or something else? [ because they're so normal and don't need a coin to dictate the flow of conversation, right? (...unless--) ] What are your plans after this?
[ "after this" as if he didn't make up a very spur of the moment dinner date just to see if kaiser would take the bait. ]
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Perhaps read something, perhaps watch something, a shower, and then bed. Unless there's another mysterious event that I was not aware I had scheduled?
[ he's onto you, sir. not that it was being particularly hidden, kaiser is realizing in retrospect. ]
Why? Are you going to offer up a prize that takes up my time?
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[ he's not going to keep up the charade anymore, they both know he gaslit gatekept girlboss'd kaiser into having dinner tonight. but also, kaiser had to have realized they didn't make any plans and still chose to take him up on the meal! this says a lot. ]
What sort of prize would you like? You aren't very materialistic. Would you like to monopolize my time then?
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